Very interesting. We're just now starting to realize how much of our behavior was ground into us millenia ago to preserve the species. This is mostly noted in regard to traits like jealousy, violence, racism (an evolution of xenophobia and clan rivalry) and especially misogyny - traits which we feel the need to explain, since they serve no purpose in our modern world, and often deter potential mates instead of securing them. However, some of the things that make us human - the ability to form deep bonds within social groups, communicate efficiently, and nuture our children - were also developed thousands of years ago to ensure survival of the species.
Without question, some of these less desireable traits will disappear over time, in the same manner they were selected for originally. I'm not holding my breath, though. Jealousy and its cousins have been ingrained in us for thousands of years - it make take another age to sift all this malice out of the population.
I shall us the power of anonymity to the best of my advantage. I disagree with a few of the points you have made in your argument.First off, traits like jealousy and violence serve plenty of purpose in this world. Try to imagine for a second what the world would be like if there was no jealousy... nobody would have any reason to succeed. There wouldn't be any motivation, for people would not be dreaming of how they wished they had the rewards reaped by money. Nobody would be jeelous about power, or money, or freedom, everybody would be happy with what they had. I myself am quite liberal and this seems to sound nice, but it seems to me that something would be missing from us without this trait. Capitalism and democracy would fall and the world would become one giant communism. No motivation, no freedom. This brings me to my next point. I don't believe these traits will be disappearing anytime soon. Our modern society is completely cultivated around jealousy and greed. Every advertisement you see is centered around making you jealous... because that is what will make you buy their product. We are becoming more and more jealous with every generation. Look at schools, kids with new technologies such as the iPhone. And everybody else is drooling over it. JEalousy and it's cousins have a very strong hold over all people, at least in this country and i don't think we will be seeing an end to it anytime soon.
Although I respect your wish for anonymity, I think it might have been beneficial to both of us had you revealed your name. You write well and make good points - even if I do disagree with many of them.
One thing before I provide my point of view on your arguments, point for point: I was talking about jealousy in the context of relationships, not in a commercial context. I will discuss economic jealousy throughout my return comment, but my comments about evolution were based, for obvious reasons, on relationships.
Anyway, after a lot of thought, I came to the conclusion you’re right about jealousy, to an extent. Many of us couch it in friendlier terms, like drive, ambition and determination. But how could we set goals for ourselves without jealousy? Many famous capitalists cite other famous capitalists as inspiration. Does that mean inspiration, in its basest form, is really jealousy? Personally my answer is no. Jealousy, to me, means that not only do you envy someone else, you covet what they have so much that if it’s impossible for both of you to have it, you would take it away without a thought. Inspiration means that while you look up to them, it’s as a role model to exalt, not as an idol to topple. You can both have such a wonderful thing, whatever it is. But this is a very thin line, and my case is mostly semantic, not to mention idealistic.
As for violence serving a purpose, WHAT? I’d like to think that you included that without thought, because what cause does violence serve except misery’s?
One note about your proposed fall of capitalism and democracy: what people fail to note is that communism failed not in and of itself, but because of the impossibility of such selflessness in humans. The humans’ fault – not the system’s. If people were no longer jealous and violent, and could accept such a socialistic system, then that very act of acceptance would make it work. Hocus-pocus idealism, I know. But if communism could work as envisioned, what would be so bad about it? Communism in its pure state isn’t the lack of freedom at all. It’s the lack of ability to restrict others’ freedom (by denying them resources that the privileged can afford). In a pure communistic state, democracy would be the natural form of government. Communism as an idea restricts capitalism, and capitalism only.
Your next point and my next point neatly dovetail. You mentioned that our society is one of jealousy and greed. Very true – but it doesn’t have to be. As the world grows wealthier, resources are becoming more available to all. In Europe, widely considered to be far, far ahead of us by many measurements (not only are they healthier than us, the Euro is rising against the dollar every day) socialistic policies are slowly taking root and sprouting benefits left and right. More stuff? Fine. There’s more money to buy it with. Sure, a few families will always be disgustingly rich, but let them have their cash. I’m fine with food on the table, a roof over my head and enough gadgets to keep me entertained.
Bring on the iPhones and the advertisements. Jealousy in relationships is enough of a dating no-no to keep me reassured that eventually our worse natures will be sifted out – whether it’s in the next thousand years or the next one hundred thousand, I’m not picky.
Very interesting. We're just now starting to realize how much of our behavior was ground into us millenia ago to preserve the species. This is mostly noted in regard to traits like jealousy, violence, racism (an evolution of xenophobia and clan rivalry) and especially misogyny - traits which we feel the need to explain, since they serve no purpose in our modern world, and often deter potential mates instead of securing them. However, some of the things that make us human - the ability to form deep bonds within social groups, communicate efficiently, and nuture our children - were also developed thousands of years ago to ensure survival of the species.
ReplyDeleteWithout question, some of these less desireable traits will disappear over time, in the same manner they were selected for originally. I'm not holding my breath, though. Jealousy and its cousins have been ingrained in us for thousands of years - it make take another age to sift all this malice out of the population.
I shall us the power of anonymity to the best of my advantage. I disagree with a few of the points you have made in your argument.First off, traits like jealousy and violence serve plenty of purpose in this world. Try to imagine for a second what the world would be like if there was no jealousy... nobody would have any reason to succeed. There wouldn't be any motivation, for people would not be dreaming of how they wished they had the rewards reaped by money. Nobody would be jeelous about power, or money, or freedom, everybody would be happy with what they had. I myself am quite liberal and this seems to sound nice, but it seems to me that something would be missing from us without this trait. Capitalism and democracy would fall and the world would become one giant communism. No motivation, no freedom.
ReplyDeleteThis brings me to my next point. I don't believe these traits will be disappearing anytime soon. Our modern society is completely cultivated around jealousy and greed. Every advertisement you see is centered around making you jealous... because that is what will make you buy their product. We are becoming more and more jealous with every generation. Look at schools, kids with new technologies such as the iPhone. And everybody else is drooling over it. JEalousy and it's cousins have a very strong hold over all people, at least in this country and i don't think we will be seeing an end to it anytime soon.
Although I respect your wish for anonymity, I think it might have been beneficial to both of us had you revealed your name. You write well and make good points - even if I do disagree with many of them.
ReplyDeleteOne thing before I provide my point of view on your arguments, point for point: I was talking about jealousy in the context of relationships, not in a commercial context. I will discuss economic jealousy throughout my return comment, but my comments about evolution were based, for obvious reasons, on relationships.
Anyway, after a lot of thought, I came to the conclusion you’re right about jealousy, to an extent. Many of us couch it in friendlier terms, like drive, ambition and determination. But how could we set goals for ourselves without jealousy? Many famous capitalists cite other famous capitalists as inspiration. Does that mean inspiration, in its basest form, is really jealousy? Personally my answer is no. Jealousy, to me, means that not only do you envy someone else, you covet what they have so much that if it’s impossible for both of you to have it, you would take it away without a thought. Inspiration means that while you look up to them, it’s as a role model to exalt, not as an idol to topple. You can both have such a wonderful thing, whatever it is. But this is a very thin line, and my case is mostly semantic, not to mention idealistic.
As for violence serving a purpose, WHAT? I’d like to think that you included that without thought, because what cause does violence serve except misery’s?
One note about your proposed fall of capitalism and democracy: what people fail to note is that communism failed not in and of itself, but because of the impossibility of such selflessness in humans. The humans’ fault – not the system’s. If people were no longer jealous and violent, and could accept such a socialistic system, then that very act of acceptance would make it work. Hocus-pocus idealism, I know. But if communism could work as envisioned, what would be so bad about it? Communism in its pure state isn’t the lack of freedom at all. It’s the lack of ability to restrict others’ freedom (by denying them resources that the privileged can afford). In a pure communistic state, democracy would be the natural form of government. Communism as an idea restricts capitalism, and capitalism only.
Your next point and my next point neatly dovetail. You mentioned that our society is one of jealousy and greed. Very true – but it doesn’t have to be. As the world grows wealthier, resources are becoming more available to all. In Europe, widely considered to be far, far ahead of us by many measurements (not only are they healthier than us, the Euro is rising against the dollar every day) socialistic policies are slowly taking root and sprouting benefits left and right. More stuff? Fine. There’s more money to buy it with. Sure, a few families will always be disgustingly rich, but let them have their cash. I’m fine with food on the table, a roof over my head and enough gadgets to keep me entertained.
Bring on the iPhones and the advertisements. Jealousy in relationships is enough of a dating no-no to keep me reassured that eventually our worse natures will be sifted out – whether it’s in the next thousand years or the next one hundred thousand, I’m not picky.